Curse

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

lolwut, YOU lecture ME about reading comprehension?

you clearly lack it.

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You also said doing the same to them, which implies that you'd try feeding them to me AFTER you'd already fed me to them, which is impossible.

it does not. i'll just chop each one up and feed it to the next family member. you are under the assumption that your family members are only family to you and not to each other, which is clearly false. the only issue would come up after i killed the last family member and there's no one that person is related to, but that's way down the line and mostly trivial. after all, this is a shitty exaggeration to match yours.

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More of your fabled reading comprehension, which reveals that it is, indeed, just a fable. It would turn you immune to damage for 1 second, but can be triggered any number of times (only when you actually DO take damage) for half a minute. This would do NOTHING against a guy just patiently hitting you with a melee weapon every 1.33 second, it would do NOTHING against condition pressure, but it would prevent tons of damage from spikes.

I'll talk to Mitch, thank you. He may be arrogant and have all the debating skills of a shit-flinging monkey, but at least he has a working brain.

you forget frenzy warriors, which hit once every .889 seconds. so in effect, your weapon makes the fundamental warrior pressure concept completely useless. clearly, you should try growing a brain before attempting to "debate".

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

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Originally Posted by moriz

you clearly lack it.

Not done playing yet?

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it does not. i'll just chop each one up and feed it to the next family member. you are under the assumption that your family members are only family to you and not to each other, which is clearly false. the only issue would come up after i killed the last family member and there's no one that person is related to, but that's way down the line and mostly trivial. after all, this is a shitty exaggeration to match yours.

So I'm not allowed to make the assumption that "the same" was meant symmetrically, but I am SUPPOSED to make the assumption that YOU would come up with a SMART solution for the last person? Needz m0ar logic.

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you forget frenzy warriors, which hit once every .889 seconds. so in effect, your weapon makes the fundamental warrior pressure concept completely useless. clearly, you should try growing a brain before attempting to "debate".

That's one of those "fiddle with the details" things that I already mentioned. Which you'd know, if you had any reading comprehension.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

i think i'll just feed that person to pigs.

but hey, if you are allowed to "fiddle with details" with your crappy idea, i'm allowed to do the same.

but my point still stands: if you idea is good enough, you don't need to resort to ridiculous exaggerations to get your point across.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

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Originally Posted by moriz

but my point still stands: if you idea is good enough, you don't need to resort to ridiculous exaggerations to get your point across.

That's also assuming that people on this forum are smart enough to grasp the concept from a toned down version. I've seen it "succesfully" argued here that 100% faster cast = instant cast, so I'm not going to assume people are smart enough.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

right, so it's our fault that YOUR idea is not fleshed out enough, yet you posted it anyway. you are also assuming that your ideas are of any good, in which case they are not.

kindly not deflect the issue. the point is: your ideas suck. get over it.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

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Originally Posted by moriz

right, so it's our fault that YOUR idea is not fleshed out enough, yet you posted it anyway. you are also assuming that your ideas are of any good, in which case they are not.

kindly not deflect the issue. the point is: your ideas suck. get over it.

No, the point was whether or not it was possible to create skills that succesfully counter spiking without also dominating pressure. Want to borrow some reading comprehension? Unspikable weapon, if you change the damage immunity to, say, 3/4th, would do that, so I proved that point.

Your feeble attempts at reasoning suck. Get over it.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

how to counter spikes: monks, positioning, shutdown/disruption. you sound like the typical newb who got owned by a simple spike. like i said much earlier in this thread, your obsession with eliminating spikes is essentially trying to remove basic coordination from the game.

your incompetence is showing. your ideas suck. even mitch would agree with me on this one, and he doesn't even like me. get over it.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

how to counter spikes: monks, positioning, shutdown/disruption. you sound like the typical newb who got owned by a simple spike. like i said much earlier in this thread, your obsession with eliminating spikes is essentially trying to remove basic coordination from the game.

Dude, quit trying already. I'm not the one obsessed with eliminating spikes. I mentioned that spiking is just good strategy. Others insisted that the meta is flooded with spikes which kills the game, so we were just discussing ways of toning this down. Enter you, all hysterical, screaming rape and murder as if the simple examples I just came up with off the top of my head were mortal sins. What's your problem?

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

your suggestion sucks, that's what i'm getting at. you seem to be too dense to realize it.

you idea will also kill most forms of physical pressure. your "unspikable weapon" will make any form of physical+caster assist useless, as well as physicals converging on a target, or any form of physical+assist for that matter. you are essentially trying to introduce a skill that makes ANY sort of offensive coordination useless, since the second person doing the assistance will be lost in the immunity effect. people would be compelled to run multiple copies of this skill to ensure that most party members are under its effect at all times, and coordinated offense of any sort grinds to a complete halt.

you can keep cutting down the immunity duration to .5 seconds, then maybe even .25 seconds. however, it stops being viable. a .25 second immunity won't stop spikes at all, since you'll rarely see a physical spike being that precise. your skill is the typical bad skill in GW: the concept sucks, so it is either overpowered or completely useless. it's about as bad as pacifism in fact.

if you want to reduce the effectiveness of spiking, the only viable way is to change the environment of gvg so that putting all of a team's offense into spikes becomes a hindrance. splitting can be made easier, snares can be buffed, so a more mobile team can outmaneuver the usually slower moving spike team. you do NOT introduce a ridiculous new skill that breaks the game.

do you even play GW? do you even play gvg? at any meaningful level? i don't think so.

Revelations · Nov 25, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

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Originally Posted by moriz

splitting can be made easier, snares can be buffed

Pretty sure those two are mutually exclusive. And water snares are pretty bullshit overpowered already. Of course, they wouldn't be nearly so bad if they didn't recharge in 5 seconds and deal a hundred f**king damage per hit. MoI needs to die in a fire.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 25, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

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Originally Posted by Nechrond

1) Aye. But you see, unless they're very good and play around this thing, they're not going to last another 30 seconds.

Uhm, have you ever actually played against a spike build? Or played GvG at all? You can survive spikes for as long as you want but it's still pretty much impossible to do any kind of pressure to them, let alone wipe them in 30 seconds..

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2) Other chars might have anti-spike too.

So each character is going to have to devote his secondary + a skill slot to fit in some retarded skill to counter spikes?

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3) Very easy? I don't think so. But yes, if the opponent clearly outplays you, they win. Is that a problem?

Shock/Gale/Mindshock/Divert the guy before spike, do a fake spike on him to bait his long recharge spike counter, those things are all pretty easy to do and are being done already with skills that recharge way faster and are instant activation.

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4) The best Judge's Intervention can do is trade blow for blow. This thing can AND WILL wipe a whole team if they spike excessively.

It can and will wipe a whole team if they're retarded and spike right into it, and remember powercreep? How's this not retarded powercreep?

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So basically you mentally inserted "the next time" into a description, which I left out on purpose?

Not really sure how else it would even be possible to code, not to mention how retarded it would be. Also if you think that it wouldn't harm pressure builds you have no clue at all about how pressure builds work.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

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Originally Posted by Revelations

Pretty sure those two are mutually exclusive. And water snares are pretty bullshit overpowered already. Of course, they wouldn't be nearly so bad if they didn't recharge in 5 seconds and deal a hundred f**king damage per hit. MoI needs to die in a fire.

true, i was thinking more along the lines of Deep Freeze, something to keep the more 8v8 spike team in place to make them easier to outmaneuver. in hindsight that probably won't work, since it benefits both styles of play. more so for the spike team actually.

one of the things that changed after the loss of monthly seasons and the move to ATs, is the value of ending matches quickly. back then, nobody played a turtle style spike because the need to gain ratings quickly outweighs the benefits from playing a defensive turtle spike. what gvg needs is some kind of bonus for winning quickly; an AT win in 10 minutes should gain more points and more rating than an AT win in 28 minutes.

Revelations · Nov 25, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

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Originally Posted by moriz

what gvg needs is some kind of bonus for winning quickly; an AT win in 10 minutes should gain more points and more rating than an AT win in 28 minutes.

I could probably bring myself to agree with additional rewards for quick wins, except rating is a bad idea for a few reasons.

1) No one cares about it.

2) Current k-value formula only has one variable - rating difference. You're proposing adding match time to that - however this is often strongly negatively correlated to the first, meaning that an unnecessarily complicated formula will be required in order for the two variables to not just completely negate each other's effects.

3) Lastly, the guilds who do actually care about rating (lol) are going to take ridiculous blows to it when they come up against the inconsistencies in (2) above. Smurfs. Baed guilds are going to tank like mental when they lose a match in three minutes to a hig rank pug guild or top ten smurf. While I could care less about baddies tanking, I do care about the (dead) gvg playerbase, and would be reluctant to see people turned away because of this.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

true, i didn't take those things into account. thanks for pointing them out.

i would like to reiterate that this defensive turtle mentality can be seen in any competitive event, from games to pro sports. after all, if you look into the winners of every profession sporting event, you won't find many with very high points, or superstar forwards. what you'll find is that the vast majority of them were very good defensively. defense wins championships, whether it's hockey, basketball, football, baseball, or even gvg. defensive styles allows the greatest margin of error; after all, it's much easier to prevent the other team from scoring, than scoring yourself. it's the same in gvg; it's much easier to play turtle defense with a spike than playing a more aggressive, run+gun kind of game.

what do gvg and these sports have in common? none of them have a "speed" component. most sports you only have to score 1 more point than your opponents when the time expires to win. winning that way is no different than blowing out your opponents. it's the same with gvg. back when the ladder mattered, the need to play as many games as possible to gain rating outweigh the benefits of playing turtle. now with that need removed, teams have no reason to play anything other than turtle defense. skill balance unfortunately won't help much, because people will just play the next best defensive build and so on.

i'm not sure what the actual fix is. i do know that it isn't a skill balance. AT and mAT setups will need to be changed in some way.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 25, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

one of the things that changed after the loss of monthly seasons and the move to ATs, is the value of ending matches quickly. back then, nobody played a turtle style spike because the need to gain ratings quickly outweighs the benefits from playing a defensive turtle spike. what gvg needs is some kind of bonus for winning quickly; an AT win in 10 minutes should gain more points and more rating than an AT win in 28 minutes.

Won't stop people from playing for 28 minutes in mATs.

Revelations · Nov 25, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

This has been suggested a few places before, so I won't claim credit for it, but removing the time limit for ladder games may potentially cause people to run more aggressive builds. Defenseway mirrors would take ridiculously long, which would hopefully be enough of a deterrent to running it. It would also eliminate the bullshit play involved after the 20 minute mark (or even before it in some matches) that is a terrible byproduct of the current tiebreak.

There are going to be a bunch of assholes who run ultradefense and wait for you to resign out, but I'm hoping that such assholes would be minimal enough to justify such a change. This is all just a tremendous theorycraft, but even if it fails horribly it might be interesting for a month or two.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Won't stop people from playing for 28 minutes in mATs.

Changing the terrible tiebreak, or allowing AT matches to run for longer would go a long way towards helping with that problem. The only issues (that we're both well aware of) are that these have been suggested a hundred times before, and they aren't likely to change for a long long time.

moriz · Nov 25, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

there was a suggestion a while back to change the single elimination part of mATs into four game round robins, and the team with the most points win. it may or may not be the one with the most wins, depending on how big of a bonus winning quickly gives.

Nechrond · Nov 25, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

No, I do not play high-level GvG. Self-proclaimed semi-noob, remember? What I'm saying is based on universal game theory. Game theory dictates that you can fix what's overpowered, but you can't fix what's broken. Overpowered = statistics are too strong, broken = mechanics are too strong. If spiking is simply overpowered, you can fiddle with the statistics and it'll all work out. However, you risk nerfing healthy skills to oblivion. Take Vampiric Spirit after the nerf: Still works in stupid gimmicks, is now useless in healthy builds. This is not good.
If spiking is broken, functional changes are needed. Toning it down is never going to work.
I'm honestly not sure yet whether it's just overpowered or plain broken. Ask me again in a few months.

Nimble Night · Nov 25, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Spiking as a mechanic is not broken. There are just an abundance of overpowered spike skills and deep enchantment removals.

The attack skills/spells need longer cast times and/ or recharge. Being able to spike every 8 seconds AND bring a shit tonne of defence is simply retarded.

kedde · Nov 26, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Yeah, fiddling with statistics as in tuning every skill in the game down.